92 Cierra ignition cuts out...
msattler
05-16-2010, 02:51 PM
92 Cierra, 2.5L 4cyl, 94k miles.
Ignition cuts out for a half second or so. Very intermittant...may do it a couple of times in 5 minutes, and not again for another few days.
Temp and service engine soon lights flash on momentarily, and instant loss of power, which then comes right back on. If you are at speed, you just keep going. At idle in gear, sometimes the cutout is short enough that engine keeps running, sometimes just long enough to stall it. Always starts right back up when cranked.
Does not seem to be affected by motor temp, road shock, or cornering. Jiggling the key while running to rattle the ignition switch will not cause it to happen.
Not battery related, lights do not dim at night, radio does not cut out, etc.. Just the loss of ignition and the two flashing indicators on the dash.
At first was thinking ignition switch, but then I reached behind the engine one day and just kinda pushed and pulled on the wiring around the coil pack, and it didn't happen again for a week. The next time it happened and I tried that again, it cut out the next day....
Any history of this problem on these cars or common failure point? Or just a random electrical failure that is gonna cost me money or drive me to drink to find?
Otherwise I guess I would have to replace the ignition switch to rule that out first (kinda a pain, and I don't know how much the switch is yet).
Thank You for any advice.
Ignition cuts out for a half second or so. Very intermittant...may do it a couple of times in 5 minutes, and not again for another few days.
Temp and service engine soon lights flash on momentarily, and instant loss of power, which then comes right back on. If you are at speed, you just keep going. At idle in gear, sometimes the cutout is short enough that engine keeps running, sometimes just long enough to stall it. Always starts right back up when cranked.
Does not seem to be affected by motor temp, road shock, or cornering. Jiggling the key while running to rattle the ignition switch will not cause it to happen.
Not battery related, lights do not dim at night, radio does not cut out, etc.. Just the loss of ignition and the two flashing indicators on the dash.
At first was thinking ignition switch, but then I reached behind the engine one day and just kinda pushed and pulled on the wiring around the coil pack, and it didn't happen again for a week. The next time it happened and I tried that again, it cut out the next day....
Any history of this problem on these cars or common failure point? Or just a random electrical failure that is gonna cost me money or drive me to drink to find?
Otherwise I guess I would have to replace the ignition switch to rule that out first (kinda a pain, and I don't know how much the switch is yet).
Thank You for any advice.
msattler
09-06-2010, 08:11 AM
Never got a response to this one.......
But I thought I would let you all know what was going on, might save somebody else some grief.
After subbing the ECM and replacing the ignition control module, crank sensor, and both coils......the problem still persisted, and was gradually getting worse. Even tried running an extra ground wire from the ECM ground stud on the engine to the battery. Finally got to the point that sometimes when it cut out it would not restart for several minutes. Seemed worse in very hot weather.
Know what it was?
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car. Must have been a pinhole in the insulation right where the wire enters the link, and upon very close inspection, you could see a bit of green corrosion. A $4.00 bit of fusible link wire and a couple of crimps took care of it.
My guess is that when cold, the insulation on the wire would shrink a bit and pull the ends of the corroded wires together enough to allow the car to run, but as things heated up and the insulation softened, the connection got worse and worse until the ECM lost B+ and there ya go.
Or rather, there ya don't go.
Finally found it by using a DMM with min/max function on the B+ feed to the ECM and driving the car on back roads until it cut out again. Watching the meter while first driving, I found the voltage dropping a little bit here and there until it went away altogether. Then checked at output side of the fuse...losing it there. Then at the input side of the fuse...losing it there. And that goes directly to the fusible link feeding the circuit down by the solenoid.
Wiggled that a bit watching the meter, and I knew I had finally found it.
Soooooo...anybody else chasing their tail with crazy intermittent problems.....make sure you are not losing B+ to the ECM before you start tossing parts at it.
But I thought I would let you all know what was going on, might save somebody else some grief.
After subbing the ECM and replacing the ignition control module, crank sensor, and both coils......the problem still persisted, and was gradually getting worse. Even tried running an extra ground wire from the ECM ground stud on the engine to the battery. Finally got to the point that sometimes when it cut out it would not restart for several minutes. Seemed worse in very hot weather.
Know what it was?
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car. Must have been a pinhole in the insulation right where the wire enters the link, and upon very close inspection, you could see a bit of green corrosion. A $4.00 bit of fusible link wire and a couple of crimps took care of it.
My guess is that when cold, the insulation on the wire would shrink a bit and pull the ends of the corroded wires together enough to allow the car to run, but as things heated up and the insulation softened, the connection got worse and worse until the ECM lost B+ and there ya go.
Or rather, there ya don't go.
Finally found it by using a DMM with min/max function on the B+ feed to the ECM and driving the car on back roads until it cut out again. Watching the meter while first driving, I found the voltage dropping a little bit here and there until it went away altogether. Then checked at output side of the fuse...losing it there. Then at the input side of the fuse...losing it there. And that goes directly to the fusible link feeding the circuit down by the solenoid.
Wiggled that a bit watching the meter, and I knew I had finally found it.
Soooooo...anybody else chasing their tail with crazy intermittent problems.....make sure you are not losing B+ to the ECM before you start tossing parts at it.
maxwedge
09-07-2010, 09:28 AM
Good find, took some stick to it mind set!!
msattler
09-07-2010, 10:45 AM
Thanks......
It was frustrating, and hard to find, being so intermittent.
I see more than a few questions here about intermittent ignition and/or fuel problems. Might give folks one more thing to check.
It was frustrating, and hard to find, being so intermittent.
I see more than a few questions here about intermittent ignition and/or fuel problems. Might give folks one more thing to check.
D Ryan
10-01-2010, 10:30 AM
Never got a response to this one.......
But I thought I would let you all know what was going on, might save somebody else some grief.
After subbing the ECM and replacing the ignition control module, crank sensor, and both coils......the problem still persisted, and was gradually getting worse. Even tried running an extra ground wire from the ECM ground stud on the engine to the battery. Finally got to the point that sometimes when it cut out it would not restart for several minutes. Seemed worse in very hot weather.
Know what it was?
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car. Must have been a pinhole in the insulation right where the wire enters the link, and upon very close inspection, you could see a bit of green corrosion. A $4.00 bit of fusible link wire and a couple of crimps took care of it.
My guess is that when cold, the insulation on the wire would shrink a bit and pull the ends of the corroded wires together enough to allow the car to run, but as things heated up and the insulation softened, the connection got worse and worse until the ECM lost B+ and there ya go.
Or rather, there ya don't go.
Finally found it by using a DMM with min/max function on the B+ feed to the ECM and driving the car on back roads until it cut out again. Watching the meter while first driving, I found the voltage dropping a little bit here and there until it went away altogether. Then checked at output side of the fuse...losing it there. Then at the input side of the fuse...losing it there. And that goes directly to the fusible link feeding the circuit down by the solenoid.
Wiggled that a bit watching the meter, and I knew I had finally found it.
Soooooo...anybody else chasing their tail with crazy intermittent problems.....make sure you are not losing B+ to the ECM before you start tossing parts at it.
Ill bet your 1 happy camper.
I also have a problem simmular to this but on a 95 3.1 cirra, its to late for me I have allready thrown the parts at it. Cleaning grounds and re-doing battery cables now.
Now I think I need to check wiring diagrams to see if that are simular in the locations of that fuseable link you dicovered as the problem..
If I understand correctly you placed a meter on the + side of the computer fuse and the meter indicated loss of power when the wires were wiggled! Is that right?
Ill bet your post will help alot of people.
But I thought I would let you all know what was going on, might save somebody else some grief.
After subbing the ECM and replacing the ignition control module, crank sensor, and both coils......the problem still persisted, and was gradually getting worse. Even tried running an extra ground wire from the ECM ground stud on the engine to the battery. Finally got to the point that sometimes when it cut out it would not restart for several minutes. Seemed worse in very hot weather.
Know what it was?
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car. Must have been a pinhole in the insulation right where the wire enters the link, and upon very close inspection, you could see a bit of green corrosion. A $4.00 bit of fusible link wire and a couple of crimps took care of it.
My guess is that when cold, the insulation on the wire would shrink a bit and pull the ends of the corroded wires together enough to allow the car to run, but as things heated up and the insulation softened, the connection got worse and worse until the ECM lost B+ and there ya go.
Or rather, there ya don't go.
Finally found it by using a DMM with min/max function on the B+ feed to the ECM and driving the car on back roads until it cut out again. Watching the meter while first driving, I found the voltage dropping a little bit here and there until it went away altogether. Then checked at output side of the fuse...losing it there. Then at the input side of the fuse...losing it there. And that goes directly to the fusible link feeding the circuit down by the solenoid.
Wiggled that a bit watching the meter, and I knew I had finally found it.
Soooooo...anybody else chasing their tail with crazy intermittent problems.....make sure you are not losing B+ to the ECM before you start tossing parts at it.
Ill bet your 1 happy camper.
I also have a problem simmular to this but on a 95 3.1 cirra, its to late for me I have allready thrown the parts at it. Cleaning grounds and re-doing battery cables now.
Now I think I need to check wiring diagrams to see if that are simular in the locations of that fuseable link you dicovered as the problem..
If I understand correctly you placed a meter on the + side of the computer fuse and the meter indicated loss of power when the wires were wiggled! Is that right?
Ill bet your post will help alot of people.
msattler
10-01-2010, 10:46 AM
Ill bet your 1 happy camper.
I also have a problem simmular to this but on a 95 3.1 cirra, its to late for me I have allready thrown the parts at it. Cleaning grounds and re-doing battery cables now.
Now I think I need to check wiring diagrams to see if that are simular in the locations of that fuseable link you dicovered as the problem..
If I understand correctly you placed a meter on the + side of the computer fuse and the meter indicated loss of power when the wires were wiggled! Is that right?
Ill bet your post will help alot of people.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM, then the computer side of the fuse, then the battery side of the fuse. When I finally wiggled the fusible link....yup.....that was it. The trick is to have a meter that will record min/max voltages. They will store and show you any momentary loss of voltage that may not show on a regular meter if you don't happen to be looking at it the instant it happens.
That's how I found it.
The opposite of my problem can be tracked with such a meter also. If you hook the meter between the ground of the ECM or any other device you wish to check and a KNOWN GOOD ground...you should see either no voltage or a very very low voltage. If the meter shows a high reading at some point when you are 'wiggling wires'... That would mean the ground is going away rather than the B+. That would have been my next step to test the ground of the ECM had I not seen the B+ going away when the engine died. If you are seeing significant voltage at what should be a device ground point....you do not have a proper ground connection.
Best of luck tracking your problem.
I also have a problem simmular to this but on a 95 3.1 cirra, its to late for me I have allready thrown the parts at it. Cleaning grounds and re-doing battery cables now.
Now I think I need to check wiring diagrams to see if that are simular in the locations of that fuseable link you dicovered as the problem..
If I understand correctly you placed a meter on the + side of the computer fuse and the meter indicated loss of power when the wires were wiggled! Is that right?
Ill bet your post will help alot of people.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM, then the computer side of the fuse, then the battery side of the fuse. When I finally wiggled the fusible link....yup.....that was it. The trick is to have a meter that will record min/max voltages. They will store and show you any momentary loss of voltage that may not show on a regular meter if you don't happen to be looking at it the instant it happens.
That's how I found it.
The opposite of my problem can be tracked with such a meter also. If you hook the meter between the ground of the ECM or any other device you wish to check and a KNOWN GOOD ground...you should see either no voltage or a very very low voltage. If the meter shows a high reading at some point when you are 'wiggling wires'... That would mean the ground is going away rather than the B+. That would have been my next step to test the ground of the ECM had I not seen the B+ going away when the engine died. If you are seeing significant voltage at what should be a device ground point....you do not have a proper ground connection.
Best of luck tracking your problem.
D Ryan
10-01-2010, 03:22 PM
Best of luck tracking your problem.
I'm carring a buckeye in my pocket now!
I have the meter trying to learn how to use the min/max feature on it, the meter is a Fluke 116 , is the testing done with just the key in the on position, and wiggling the wires.
Yes! the 3.1 has the fusable links just like yours, there on the postive post on the silonoid.
Did your computer throw a code when it stoped or stumbled?:screwy:
I'm carring a buckeye in my pocket now!
I have the meter trying to learn how to use the min/max feature on it, the meter is a Fluke 116 , is the testing done with just the key in the on position, and wiggling the wires.
Yes! the 3.1 has the fusable links just like yours, there on the postive post on the silonoid.
Did your computer throw a code when it stoped or stumbled?:screwy:
msattler
10-01-2010, 03:33 PM
I'm carring a buckeye in my pocket now!
I have the meter trying to learn how to use the min/max feature on it, the meter is a Fluke 116 , is the testing done with just the key in the on position, and wiggling the wires.
Yes! the 3.1 has the fusable links just like yours, there on the postive post on the silonoid.
Did your computer throw a code when it stoped or stumbled?:screwy:
Dunno....never tried to read any, as the check engine light never stayed on. My guess is that with the power dropping dead to the ECM, it never logged any codes.
But I can't say that for sure.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM and the car running....until I verified that the feed was being lost there. Then out to the fuse with the key on, waiting for the voltage to come back, which it did after waiting for things to cool down, which of course turned out to be the bad connection at the fusible link.
Then I just left the key on and started doing the wiggle dance until I found the culprit.
I have the meter trying to learn how to use the min/max feature on it, the meter is a Fluke 116 , is the testing done with just the key in the on position, and wiggling the wires.
Yes! the 3.1 has the fusable links just like yours, there on the postive post on the silonoid.
Did your computer throw a code when it stoped or stumbled?:screwy:
Dunno....never tried to read any, as the check engine light never stayed on. My guess is that with the power dropping dead to the ECM, it never logged any codes.
But I can't say that for sure.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM and the car running....until I verified that the feed was being lost there. Then out to the fuse with the key on, waiting for the voltage to come back, which it did after waiting for things to cool down, which of course turned out to be the bad connection at the fusible link.
Then I just left the key on and started doing the wiggle dance until I found the culprit.
D Ryan
10-01-2010, 06:05 PM
Dunno....never tried to read any, as the check engine light never stayed on. My guess is that with the power dropping dead to the ECM, it never logged any codes.
But I can't say that for sure.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM and the car running....until I verified that the feed was being lost there. Then out to the fuse with the key on, waiting for the voltage to come back, which it did after waiting for things to cool down, which of course turned out to be the bad connection at the fusible link.
Then I just left the key on and started doing the wiggle dance until I found the culprit.
Look familar?
top fuseable links pictured:
Gray Lead , gray (srink) with yellow stripe
Blue Lead large, Black (srink) green stripe
Bottom fuseable link pictured:
Black lead, Black (srink) with white stripe
Black lead, Black (srink) with green stripe
Wouldent remember with wire was to emc would you?
Cant find the location your talking about in this paragraph:
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car.
But I can't say that for sure.
I started with the meter on the B+ feed to the ECM and the car running....until I verified that the feed was being lost there. Then out to the fuse with the key on, waiting for the voltage to come back, which it did after waiting for things to cool down, which of course turned out to be the bad connection at the fusible link.
Then I just left the key on and started doing the wiggle dance until I found the culprit.
Look familar?
top fuseable links pictured:
Gray Lead , gray (srink) with yellow stripe
Blue Lead large, Black (srink) green stripe
Bottom fuseable link pictured:
Black lead, Black (srink) with white stripe
Black lead, Black (srink) with green stripe
Wouldent remember with wire was to emc would you?
Cant find the location your talking about in this paragraph:
Dang fusible link down by the starter solenoid that feeds the ECM/fuel pump circuit through a fuse by the relays in the right front corner of the car.
msattler
10-01-2010, 06:21 PM
Look familar?
top fuseable links pictured:
Gray Lead , gray (srink) with yellow stripe
Blue Lead large, Black (srink) green stripe
Bottom fuseable link pictured:
Black lead, Black (srink) with white stripe
Black lead, Black (srink) with green stripe
Wouldent remember with wire was to emc would you?
Mine is a '92 with the 2.5l engine.....the fusible link was orange on the solenoid side, and solid red going from there to the fuseholder in the right front of the car. Solid orange from the fuseholder to the ECM via 2 wires.
Yours is a different year and engine, so I don't suspect it will be the same. Pity you don't have a manual. I have purchased a factory manual for every car I have ever owned for the last twenty years. They can be invaluable.
top fuseable links pictured:
Gray Lead , gray (srink) with yellow stripe
Blue Lead large, Black (srink) green stripe
Bottom fuseable link pictured:
Black lead, Black (srink) with white stripe
Black lead, Black (srink) with green stripe
Wouldent remember with wire was to emc would you?
Mine is a '92 with the 2.5l engine.....the fusible link was orange on the solenoid side, and solid red going from there to the fuseholder in the right front of the car. Solid orange from the fuseholder to the ECM via 2 wires.
Yours is a different year and engine, so I don't suspect it will be the same. Pity you don't have a manual. I have purchased a factory manual for every car I have ever owned for the last twenty years. They can be invaluable.
D Ryan
10-01-2010, 06:54 PM
Mine is a '92 with the 2.5l engine.....the fusible link was orange on the solenoid side, and solid red going from there to the fuseholder in the right front of the car. Solid orange from the fuseholder to the ECM via 2 wires.
Yours is a different year and engine, so I don't suspect it will be the same. Pity you don't have a manual. I have purchased a factory manual for every car I have ever owned for the last twenty years. They can be invaluable.
Well I have a Hayens manual but its not very good!
I think I found the fuse holder next to the relays on raditor support, it was hidden under the frontend brace, looks like a 15amp fuse in it. (pict)
Thanks for all the input, its about to drive me to drinking also! LOL:banghead:
Is the ECM powered by a relay?
Yours is a different year and engine, so I don't suspect it will be the same. Pity you don't have a manual. I have purchased a factory manual for every car I have ever owned for the last twenty years. They can be invaluable.
Well I have a Hayens manual but its not very good!
I think I found the fuse holder next to the relays on raditor support, it was hidden under the frontend brace, looks like a 15amp fuse in it. (pict)
Thanks for all the input, its about to drive me to drinking also! LOL:banghead:
Is the ECM powered by a relay?
msattler
10-01-2010, 07:01 PM
Well I have a Hayens manual but its not very good!
I think I found the fuse holder next to the relays on raditor support, it was hidden under the frontend brace, looks like a 15amp fuse in it. (pict)
Thanks for all the input, its about to drive me to drinking also! LOL:banghead:
Is the ECM powered by a relay?
No......at least not in mine. It has to have power all the time to retain codes in memory and such. No power for a few minutes.....that's how you reset them.
Battery to solenoid, fusible link to the fuseholder in the fender, from there directly to the ECM. There are some ignition switch controlled power sources to the ECM as well, but in my case the primary power link was the problem.
I think I found the fuse holder next to the relays on raditor support, it was hidden under the frontend brace, looks like a 15amp fuse in it. (pict)
Thanks for all the input, its about to drive me to drinking also! LOL:banghead:
Is the ECM powered by a relay?
No......at least not in mine. It has to have power all the time to retain codes in memory and such. No power for a few minutes.....that's how you reset them.
Battery to solenoid, fusible link to the fuseholder in the fender, from there directly to the ECM. There are some ignition switch controlled power sources to the ECM as well, but in my case the primary power link was the problem.
D Ryan
10-01-2010, 07:18 PM
No......at least not in mine. It has to have power all the time to retain codes in memory and such. No power for a few minutes.....that's how you reset them.
Battery to solenoid, fusible link to the fuseholder in the fender, from there directly to the ECM. There are some ignition switch controlled power sources to the ECM as well, but in my case the primary power link was the problem.
That makes good sence!
Sence I have the links disconnected and the fan out of the way Ill Ohm the links and try and find the wire to the fuse for the ecm. I think I could take the reading with the meter right from there, with the engine running.
I'm cleaning the battery cables up now in some Coke, works good!
Battery to solenoid, fusible link to the fuseholder in the fender, from there directly to the ECM. There are some ignition switch controlled power sources to the ECM as well, but in my case the primary power link was the problem.
That makes good sence!
Sence I have the links disconnected and the fan out of the way Ill Ohm the links and try and find the wire to the fuse for the ecm. I think I could take the reading with the meter right from there, with the engine running.
I'm cleaning the battery cables up now in some Coke, works good!
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